ELECTIONS '98
COMMENTARY
SPECIALS
INTERVIEWS
CAPITAL BUZZ
REDIFF POLL
DEAR REDIFF
THE STATES
YEH HAI INDIA!
ARCHIVES

The Rediff Interview/Anthony T Lobo

'It is the religious fundamentalists in both countries who have made persecution a religious business'

On May 6 this year, Bishop John Joseph of Faisalabad in Pakistan committed suicide in protest against the country's blasphemy laws. The 65-year-old Catholic bishop shot himself after courts in Pakistan issued a death sentence on Ayub Masih, a Christian convicted for allegedly blaspheming Prophet Mohammed in a controversial land case.

Bishop Joseph's suicide has sparked off a series of protests in the Muslim country where minority leaders say Hindus and Christians are being systematically persecuted.

Leading the minority campaigners in Pakistan is Anthony T Lobo,the bishop of Islamabad and Rawalpindi. In an official visit to New Delhi recently, Bishop Lobo met with the Indian media to explain how the blasphemy laws in Pakistan have become a nightmare for minority communities in Pakistan.

In an exclusive interview to George Iype,Bishop Lobo spoke on the blasphemy laws and the human rights situation in Pakistan and argues that "the brains that made nuclear bombs in India and Pakistan should now find solutions for peace in Kashmir and poverty in these countries". An excerpt from the interview:

You have been championing the cause of minorities in Pakistan. Do you feel Hindus and Christians are unsafe in the country?

Bishop Joseph's suicide has exposed the human rights crisis in Pakistan. There are nearly two million Christians and a similar number of Hindus in the country. We all feel that minorities in Pakistan are being persecuted for one reason or the other. The blasphemy laws in Pakistan are an instrument of persecution and it is high time the country ensured human rights and religious freedom to its minority communities.

We have no value in society and in the political system just because we belong to a minority community. Just because we do not probably vote for the majority community candidates, they do not care for us. The Church in Pakistan has been repeatedly asking the president and prime minister to evolve a system of joint electorates as a first step towards better relations between the minority communities and the majority Muslim community.

But aren't the minority politicians in Pakistan with you in your struggle against rights violations?

There are few minority political leaders in the country. And worse, they are the least influential leaders in politics. The minorities are now out of the mainstream of national and social life in Pakistan. We are deliberately being excluded from the political system. Politics in Pakistan is such that if a member of parliament from the minority communities is not rich and influential, he is useless in parliament. Hindu and Christian politicians elected to parliament have neither money nor political clout. So they are very rarely able to meet the prime minister, other ministers and the government secretaries. Therefore, when the blasphemy law was passed in parliament, we were not in a position to oppose it. The blasphemy law is the worst legislation in Pakistan.

Do you think the blasphemy law in an instrument to harass and persecute minorities in the country?

It is so dangerous a law that often even Muslims are its victims. Some months back, a devout Pakistani Muslim was lynched just because a copy of the Holy Quran accidentally fell from his hands into a fire. The trouble with this law is that it is very vague and ambiguous. The original Pakistani Penal Code as it existed in the British days was not discriminatory towards any religion or minority communities. Offences were treated equally. But Section 295 C and D of the Code, which are now known as the blasphemy laws, were introduced by the late president Zia-ul-Haq in 1984. As per these sections, disrespect to the Holy Quran and to the Prophet is a punishable offence.

These sections are being misused against minorities in all offences. I feel there is some definite motive behind these laws. If there is a quarrel between a Muslim and a Christian over a piece of land, the latter is often accused of denigrating the Prophet or the Quran. Anything that you say can be misinterpreted as blasphemy. So in other words, the minorities are being told to shut their mouth because there is the blasphemy law to fear about. If a school child does not greet his teacher in the morning, it becomes blasphemy. Conviction for blaspheming the Prophet or the Quran generally results in a mandatory death sentence, as has happened to four Christians so far. Three, though acquitted later, fled the country fearing death threats.

But doesn't the court interpret the blasphemy law correctly and give justice to the victims?

In a country like Pakistan, courts and police stations are not of much help. The law says a blasphemy case should be registered first and then it should go to the court. But there have been a number of incidents where the victims are murdered in jail. The courts are also so communal that the victims under the blasphemy law are forced to flee the country.

Do you think the minorities in Pakistan are being treated like the way Muslims are being treated in India?

I would not like to put it that way because it is not often the governments that are persecuting the Muslims in India or the Christians or Hindus in Pakistan. It is the religious fundamentalists in both countries who have made persecution a religious business. Fundamentalism is on the rise in Pakistan mostly due to certain diehard groups which are in fact also inciting the Ahmediyas to attack others. Fundamentalism is not just happening in India and Pakistan alone. There are Christian fundamentalists in America.

Most issues and problems in India and Pakistan are not about Muslims and Hindus, but they are about people. Take poverty. There is no Muslim poverty and Hindu poverty. The problems are basically human. And therefore, I think we should work together to alleviate the human problems in the country and between the countries.

Haven't you met the president and prime minister in Pakistan to press for the repeal of the blasphemy laws?

I met the present President Rafi Ahmed Tarar. But he said it is very difficult to repeal and amend the laws in the country. But he was willing to make such procedural formalities in registering the case in an effort to stop their misuse. Prime Minister Nawaz Sharief is also very sympathetic towards us. He even offered me his private plane for church leaders in Pakistan to attend the funeral of Mother Teresa in Calcutta last year. The prime minister of Pakistan is not anti-Christian or anti-Hindu. But the political situation which he finds himself in is such that Sharief can not take any bold moves to protect the rights of minorities.

You said India and Pakistan should work together to alleviate human problems like poverty in both the countries. What are the areas that you think they should co-operate in?

Trade between India and Pakistan should be the utmost priority for Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee and his Pakistani counterpart. It could extend to the whole of South Asia that we will in course of time become like another European Union. The European countries are making one currency and one visa. They are becoming one people. The tendency worldwide is to cooperate and progress. South Asian nations led by India and Pakistan could take the lead in emulating the European countries to make one currency, one visa and ultimately become one people bonded by love and concern for each neighbour. The South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation could be the medium for this great union of South Asia.

It does not mean that each country should lose its sovereignty, identity and culture. In Pakistan, Indian books on medicine, science and technology are now easily and cheaply available. The prices of these books are one-tenth of the prices in America and Europe. Similarly trade could take off between the countries in different directions.

But peace is a priority before friendship. Do you think India and Pakistan will work for peace by finding a solution to the Kashmir problem?

It is tragic that India and Pakistan need nuclear deterrence to live in peace. I hate the proponents of this theory. I feel people in both the countries are simple at heart who want to end this old enmity between the two neighbours. I strongly feel politicians and those in power in both the countries have lost their sense of direction. That is the precise reason why they conduct nuclear blasts, threaten each other and issue threatening statements to add insult to injury. There cannot be social and economic progress in India and Pakistan till they solve the Kashmir problem and embrace as friends.

Aren't our politicians ashamed to feel so much poverty, illiteracy, unemployment around them even 50 years after both the countries were divided? At the time of Independence, India and Pakistan were not worse off than Germany and Japan were. Germany and Japan were destroyed and their cities were bombed in the Second World War. But today they are economic giants and world powers. And look at where India and Pakistan are today. We are still enmeshed in poverty, unemployment and perpetual economic slump. There will be no progress in India and Pakistan, if there is no peace between the countries.

The arms race is very expensive and ridiculous. If there is friendship, there will be trade and then progress in both the nations. If the money spent on arms purchase is diverted to the poor for health, education and housing, then both sides would see social and economic welfare blooming. But if both sides are spending on arms -- which they are doing -- sooner or later there will be a war between India and Pakistan.

So you believe a solution to the Kashmir problem is possible between India and Pakistan?

Definitely. The Kashmir problem was not created by God, but by human beings. The brains that made the nuclear bombs in Pakistan and India now should strive to find a solution to achieve peace. The Kashmir problem can be and should be solved because there will be no winners in a nuclear war. As human beings we should use our brains, sentiments and ethics to make peace rather than talk about war. But the biggest challenge is that the initiative to solve the Kashmir issue should come from the people, not from politicians. Politicians have messed up the Indo-Pak relations in the last 50 years.

The Rediff Interviews