Just back from a trip to Washington, former deputy chief of army staff Lieutenant General Satish Nambiar believes the USA and its people have changed a great deal since the terrorist attacks on September 11.

Gen Nambiar, who saw action during the 1965 and 1971 wars against Pakistan, later served as director general, military operations. He was also the first force commander and head of mission of the United Nations forces in the former Yugoslavia.

Currently director of the United Services Institution of India, a think tank of the armed forces, he told Ramesh Menon that India must behave like a confident nation and tackle terrorism without looking for international help. Excerpts:

Since you have just returned from Washington, can you describe the situation there?

American society has been shaken. Earlier, there was a degree of complacency as the feeling was that America was far away from the rest of the world. However, you can see the impact everywhere. At the airport, you see the National Guards in combat uniform. Just like a police state. It is a reflection of the insecurity and the impact of the attack. People are going around buying gas masks and stores have run out of them.

What about the international impact?

The international impact was the necessity to tackle terrorism. I think they have gone about it pretty well. Given the past record of the Americans, one would have thought that bombs would rain on Afghanistan soon after the attack on the WTC -- just to show the world that one could not get away after taking on the world's superpower.

However, that did not happen. I think this was mainly because of people like [Secretary of State] Colin Powell. George Bush has a very experienced team though he himself is inexperienced in international relations. But you must credit him with a good team.

What is the attack going to achieve?

Their weapons are very accurate. But these are valid for stationary targets -- where you make calculations and hit them. But [in this case] those whom you want to target are no longer there. The terrorist camps have been vacated long ago.

No matter what information America has collected, it would be dated now. These so-called military installations and the control tower in Kandahar are supposed to have been hit. But of what significance is it? The Taleban do not need Kandahar airport for their operations. They have no aircraft that need a control tower. Their total air capacity would be a few Stingers. So [the attack] is largely symbolic and meant for the American public.

They can get remote achievement if they carry out sustained bombing as they did in Kosovo for 17 days and brought the Yugoslav population to its knees by the sheer destruction of infrastructure. That will not happen in Afghanistan as there is nothing to destroy.

The other chance is to break the cohesion of the Taleban leadership. That is so remote that you can easily discount it.

What could possibly be the next stage?

They have to do something on the ground to get both the Taleban and Osama bin Laden. But given the Soviet experience, they are unlikely to commit their ground forces in terms of a large number of troops going into Afghanistan.

What they can do is to continue aerial strikes, but they will have to offer ground support. That means they will have to come down lower and target tanks and guns, which can directly assist the Northern Alliance. But this means taking risks.

The only thing is to use laser-guided weapons on the ground. I think they will have to take the risk as they have been targeted and need to deal with Osama bin Laden and the Taleban regime. They will have to use the Northern Alliance.

Can the Northern Alliance be relied upon?

Well, as far as removing the Taleban is concerned, they can be relied upon. Removing the Taleban regime is one of their goals. Even most of the regimes of the Gulf like Saudi Arabia would be happy to see the Taleban go. I would go to the extent of saying that even Pakistan would be happy to see that.

Why do you say that?

My view is that the ruling elite in Pakistan, both in the political and business spheres, are worried now about the culture represented by the Taleban. It is because Osama bin Laden is being seen as someone who wants existing regimes in Muslim countries replaced for pure Islam. That is not what Pakistan wants. There might be sections in the Pakistani society who have been brainwashed enough to want it. But the majority does not want mediæval obscurantism.

In a way, it is a clash of civilisations, but not in the classic way Samuel Huntington meant between the Christian West and Islam. But this is between two civilisations -- one which represents the forces of pluralistic societies with their multi-religious content, versus mediæval obscurantist forces.

Will it be easy for Musharraf?

Musharraf is preparing the ground for it. The leadership in Pakistan has resigned to the possibility that the Taleban will go. They are preparing the ground for a new arrangement in Afghanistan.

Musharraf has played his cards well. He is going to extract his pound of flesh from the United States. He has told his people that their economic conditions will improve. He will also extract a price in terms of the Kashmir dispute. He must have spoken to America and one does not know what assurances he has got.

A lot of people I talk to say that India got a raw deal as America is now leaning towards Pakistan.

We expressed our support to America. It was the right thing to do. Now, we see various sections are expressing disappointment that though we gave support to the US, they did not take it and instead went to Pakistan. I think this is ridiculous. How can serious thinking people comment like this?

What can we give the United States? We can give them intelligence, which we have shared with them. And, they are grateful for it. There is nothing else we can do.

Pakistan is contiguous with Afghanistan. They have links with the Taleban. What we need to do is make counter-moves depending on what Pakistan is going to extract from the United States.

Our position on Jammu & Kashmir is quite clear. The terrorist threat is not going to finish with J&K. There are terrorist networks within Pakistan and also within India that need to be addressed.

We should first concentrate on cleaning up Jammu & Kashmir. We now have the opportunity. No one can deny us that. We must take advantage of the worldwide feeling against terrorism. We are bleating all the time that the Americans should do this and that for us. Americans will not do anything for us. It is idiotic to expect them to fight our battle. They are not going to wipe out the Jaish-e-Mohammed camps. We have to identify it and do it ourselves.

We have to act depending on how things turn out in Afghanistan. If we have good terms with the new regime, Pakistan will have to readjust itself. Some compromises may be required in the interests of the region. But we have to know how far we can go and draw the line.

Musharraf seems confident in front of television cameras, but he must be a worried man. After all, there are sections of Pakistani society which have been brainwashed. But I think he will be able to control the situation. As long as he in charge of the army, he will manage. He seems to be in charge as he has replaced some army generals.

Why has he suddenly reshuffled some of his generals?

One of the reasons may be pressure from the United States. They represented the segment in the Pakistani armed forces which supports the Taleban regime. So he had to get rid of them. He is re-establishing his control. In some ways, he is removing those from positions of power who subscribe to the Taleban philosophy. Even people in Pakistan do not want Talebanisation.

What about the demonstrations in Pakistan?

The demonstrations are not of the magnitude that can cause an upheaval in Pakistan. I am not too sure, but it could as well be orchestrated to show the world that he has pressures at home and can only go this far and no more.

Is there any rethinking now about India's strategy of having released terrorists during the hijack of IC-814?

This is why the ISI chief was eased out, because he had a link with one of the hijackers. A Jaish-e-Mohammed leader was also one of the hijackers. These are all lessons for us. It is also a lesson for the Americans -- they can no longer isolate themselves.

Musharaff recently spoke to Vajpayee asking for his help in fighting terrorism. It sounded so dramatic and ironical.

You have to hand it out to this guy. He is playing his cards so well. See how he handles the media. The Americans do not know the ground situation in Kashmir or Pakistan and see it as a move by Musharraf to ask India to help him fight terrorism. In the last two weeks I was there, it was only Pakistan that was mentioned on American television, not India.

The Northern Command of the Indian Army is on high alert.

Not only on high alert, they should now be cleaning up the terrorists. No one can question us as far as fighting terrorism now.

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