The Rediff Interview/A R Antulay

'It was a self-destructive and a suicidal move. Kesri must quit'

A R Antulay's was perhaps the most vociferous voice in the Congress party protesting against Sitaram Kesri's decision to withdraw support to the United Front government. In this candid interview with Syed Firdaus Ashraf, Antulay -- the only Muslim ever to head a government in Maharashtra -- explains his disenchantment with the Congress leadership.

Where were you when you discovered that the Congress had withdrawn support to the United Front?

I was in Bombay. A political friend of mine was informed by a correspondent of a news agency. And that friend called to inform me that Kesri has withdrawn support and staked a claim to form a government. This was around 3 o'clock.

What was your immediate reaction?

My reaction was one of bewilderment. I could not believe it. And there was every reason for me not to believe the news. I don't think any Congressman in the country, barring the vested interests, was happy with the news. I feel it was a self-destructive and a suicidal move.

Did you have any inkling about this move?

No. But this was not the first time that Kesri was threatening to withdraw support. During the election in Uttar Pradesh, he also threatened the government. It was wrong to threaten the UF government.

Why do you feel that threatening the UF government was wrong?

Only if a government is performing against the interests of country can you threaten the government with withdrawing support. The Deve Gowda government was doing nothing of that sort. I feel the Congress should not even have threatened to withdraw support.

Do you believe when Mr Kesri withdrew support to the United Front, he had a strategy to form a government?

There was no strategy. It was a gamble. There was no gameplan. It is said in Urdu, takht aur takhta (Either you get the throne or you get the gallows). It was the same with Kesri.

Why did Mr Kesri keep his cards close to his chest, not even informing senior leaders like yourself, Mr Pawar and Mr Pilot?

Forget me, I never expected him to tell me or divulge anything to me. Because he never did it. And I don't feel bad about it. But he can certainly reveal why he did not inform someone whom he appointed leader of the party in the Lok Sabha, why did he keep him in the dark.

I don't agree with your statement that he was keeping his cards close to his chest. There were no cards. And when there were no cards, the question of keeping it close to his chest did not arise. When I say takht aur takhta, one should know the extremes. By fluke if you succeed, you get the throne and if you don't succeed you get the gallows.

Why did the talks with the UF fail?

I was not on the negotiating team. I was never given any forum to air my views. I am neither in the Congress Working Committee nor an invitee to the CWC. Nor do some people who are supposed to be important in the party sit together. During the Congress Parliamentary Party meeting, a senior leader like me was not even allowed to express my views. Before I could express my views they wound up the meeting.

How close was the Congress to a split on Thursday? Or was the threat of a split never real?

The Congress has split twice. Once in 1969, and the other on December 31, 1977 - January 1, 1978. Those splits came about because of the towering personality of Mrs Indira Gandhi. You need a towering personality when you talk of a split in the party. All those who talk of a split don't understand the present day Congress party.

In 1969, the Congress was alive and thriving in government. When the split took place many did not side with Mrs Gandhi. This humble self had the privilege to work with her in those days. And because of her stature the split took place. Now the united Congress is worse than a split Congress. What split are you talking about?

So you think Mr Kesri must quit?

This is my humble request. That he gracefully quit.

But why? Is it because he withdrew support to the UF government?

I don't think the party can recover for many months from this particular situation. Now you are not staking a claim to form the government. You have withdrawn your claim. If Deve Gowda is replaced and some other UF leader takes charge, I don't understand how the situation will change.

The CWC has endorsed his decision.

As far as the CWC is concerned it has outlived its tenure and purpose. The constitution of the Congress says that every committee will have a two year term. But this CWC has existed for more than double its tenure. The CWC's term was to expire in 1994 and it is continuing till today. But I must say that all the working committee members are my friends.

So Mr Kesri must quit along with the CWC members?

That would be ideal. The All India Congress Committee must be summoned and a new president elected. The party president is elected by the Pradesh Congress Committees. Now, most of the PCCs have been appointed by the president himself. And out of these PCCs, not all are elected.

Who will replace Mr Kesri? You have asked Sharad Pawar to take the lead? You and Mr Pawar have never been good friends, so why do you think he may be the hope for the Congress?

I have suggested Mr Pawar's name in all seriousness. I suggested the name for two reasons. Nobody should think that I am saying all these things in personal anger. Mr Pawar and I have unfortunately fighting throughout our lives. And if I suggest his name, nobody will say that I have a vested interest or any ulterior motive. I find Mr Pawar, compared to Mr Kesri, a better man in today's context. So, I wanted to tell the world that even Mr Pawar in this matter -- I underline my words, 'in this matter' -- is taller than Kesri.

Why not suggest the names of Rajesh Pilot or some other Congress leader?

If I had given Rajesh Pilot's name they would have said he was a friend. The same is the case with Vijaya Bhaskara Reddy. Or Karunakaran or R K Dhawan.

In your opinion, why did Mr Pawar not speak out in Mr Kesri's favour when Mr Deve Gowda was attacking him in the Lok Sabha?

Ask this question to Mr Pawar.

What must the Congress do now? You have described it as a patient in terminal decline, so how can the party be revived?

It can be revived. Nobody was supporting Mrs Gandhi in 1977 after she was thrown out of power. She was defeated by Raj Narainji. And I was with Indiraji, and I think I can make some contribution to revive it as I build up the party under the leadership of Indira Gandhi.

If you are made Congress Parliamentary Party leader or party president, can you revive the party?

Let me tell you honestly, I know my limitations. Abdul Rehman Antulay will never be made the CPP leader. Abdul Rehman Antulay will never be made the Congress president. Because I am Abdul Rehman Antulay. I have said this on the floor of the House. Instead of Abdul Rehman Antulay, if I was Atmaram Ramji Antulay, I would have gone far ahead.

You mean to say since you are a Muslim, you will never be made Congress president or CPP leader?

Of course! I have said this on the floor of the House. I have said so in December 1989. I don't feel shy. And mind, not only I am a Muslim. I am a Muslim who will not dance to other's tunes. Today we have Muslim leaders whose conscience is dead.

Are you referring to Ghulam Nabi Azad and Tariq Anwar?

I don't want to name anyone. Unfortunately, I find that other parties have given Muslims a chance. V P Singh made Mufti Mohammad Sayeed home minister. He did not become prime, minister but he was home minister. But show me one Muslim in the Congress after Independence who held the home portfolio. Or show me one Muslim who became Congress president after Independence.

Coming back to Mr Kesri, do you think he withdrew support because of the Dr S K Tanwar case?

I don't go into personal matters.

Or do you think he withdrew support for personal reasons?

I am as much in the dark as you are.

Don't you think the Congress will look very foolish if it accepts another UF government?

Whether it looks foolish or not, that is not the point. The point is that the country must not face another election or else the country will be in a crisis.

How many Congress MPs are opposed to Mr Kesri at this stage? Can they join forces under another leader?

I have never spoken on the basis of the support I enjoyed. I believed in Rabindranath Tagore's great saying: Ekla chalo re. If my conscience says I must speak. I will speak. Main to akela hi chala that janeebe manzil magar, log milte gaye, karva banta gaya. I don't know who wants to revolt or oppose Kesri.

But please recall. After Morarji and Charan Singh, I issued a statement that this system will not work. We need a Presidential system of government. I think I was the first politician in India to say that. Many agreed, but some felt I was doing the talking for Indira Gandhi. According to me, the highest post in the country must have security of tenure. And I have repeated this at the AICC meeting when I was chief minister of Maharashtra. Even today, I believe in this.

How do you assess Mr Kesri as a leader?

Some leaders are born leaders. Others are made leaders. Unfortunately, we don't have born leaders. After assuming office a leader displays his qualities. There are many incidents in history. And I have not seen any of these qualities in my leader. I say my leader as it is evident that I did not vote against the whip. I am scared of none but the Almighty.

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